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Fire Emblem Anon Mod ([personal profile] feanonmod) wrote in [community profile] feanons2014-04-14 12:34 pm
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part 3 kris, try not to fall in love with me!

Aaand now we're now onto part 3!

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Canon | General Fandom | Fans

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IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

CANON

(Anonymous) 2014-04-14 08:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Thread for venting about any part of the Fire Emblem series.

Remember, it is fine to disagree with others' opinions in this thread. Being malicious, however, when you disagree is not.

Re: CANON

(Anonymous) 2014-04-15 03:11 am (UTC)(link)
Let's start off with this thread with some Tharja venting. Or rather, let's start off with some of my own criticism of how the devs handled Tharja and her design.

Pretty sure we've discussed before how Tharja wearing an outfit she ICly would feel uncomfortable with and, in fact, does feel so in Summer Scramble.

Was anyone find the in-game explanation they give in her Summer Scramble supports with Cordelia where she basically says she never realized how revealing her outfit was until Cordelia pointed it out problematic? I know there some anons last discussion who mentioned it could have been a way of showing how socially awkward she was, but I disagree with that tbh.

The "she didn't realize her outfit's so fanservice-y until someone told her!" explanation, or the Innocent (or Reluctant) Fanservice Girl trope, has been used in many anime and manga, including video games, as a form of fanservice to the male audience as a way of showing how "cute, childish, and innocent" she is. Yes, even for ladies who'd be the last you'd describe as "cute", "childish", or "innocent" such as Tharja.

In other words, the writers are more or less invoking the Innocent (or Reluctant) Fanservice Girl trope in the Tharja/Cordelia convo as a way of paying service to Tharja's fanbase than actually adding to her character.

Feel free to agree or disagree, but I personally find that... a pretty problematic way of handling Tharja's character.

Re: CANON - reposted

(Anonymous) 2014-04-15 10:24 am (UTC)(link)
My problem with these arguments is that such stuff reminds me a LOT of real life slut shaming. They put responsability on the real/fictional female for wearing the revealing outfit and less on the males oggling her and thay makes me deeply uncomfortable as it reminds me of the "bitch should have covered herself!!!!" shit, which often comes from women that are VERY often jealous of the "miss fanservice" herself fir the attention she gets adf look desperately for any reasons to bring her down for *GASP* being sexually appealing in any way.

Combine such train of thoughts with the Tharja haters placing LOTS of emphasis on her sex appeal as their reason to hate her even they claim otherwise (re: certain Noire "fans") and screeching att her mere existence, and it makes for DAMN unfortunate bullshit that's centered on hwo EW EW, THARJA IS SEXUALIIIIIIISED, KILL HER. I'm not saying that YOU are doing the same, anon, but it does conflate a lot from what I've seen of the Tharja bashing - using her 'sexy' looks as a "crutch" to bash her, despite saying it's not for that.

Also, there's a detail to consider: Tharja isn't the only one who invokes the Innocent/Reluctant Fanservice Girl trope. Both Cordelia and Olivia do it too, and in fact they do it in the same Scramble stagte... but both get LESS shit for it. Why? I'd like to know. But I feel it's for the same reason up there: the fans feel more threatened because of Tharja's hang-ups and downright weird personalities, so they don't tend to look at them and focus on complaining about Tharja rather than them. (Even when Olivia DOES get her share of pot shots.)

So yeah, there might be some truth to your arguments and reasons, but looking at fandom I still can't help wincing and being disgusted. Awakening unlocked the inner misogyny of many fans, specially insecure girls who hate on other women for X/Y/Z, and damn it tends to show with how they use Tharja as a scapegoat for such stuff.


PS: This is not about you or the discussion, but may I say that I HATE the word "problematic"? It has been so invoked by pretentious and bully-addicted SJW's and slapped on "anything *I* don't like, weh weh weeeeeeh" that it has pretty mch lost its meaning.

ayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-16 02:21 am (UTC)(link)
I'm just going to be breaking down my response since it's easier for me to get my thoughts together that way...

They put responsability on the real/fictional female for wearing the revealing outfit and less on the males oggling her and thay makes me deeply uncomfortable as it reminds me of the "bitch should have covered herself!!!!" shit, which often comes from women that are VERY often jealous of the "miss fanservice" herself fir the attention she gets adf look desperately for any reasons to bring her down for *GASP* being sexually appealing in any way.

I'm aware you aren't saying this about me, but I'd like to point out most of these arguments are putting responsibility on the artists and the game devs for designing the character for how she dresses/appears. MANY female characters who are designed to wear revealing outfits, even when it's inappropriate for the situation, don't tend to choose that outfit because the character herself chooses to out of her personal preferences. It's because whoever designed her that way said so, usually because they subconsciously or consciously wanted some eye candy with a nice pair of legs or they believe sexily clad females are the "norm" even when it's OOC of her to wear what she does.

Obviously, there are people out there who piss on female characters no matter what, but just as many complaining are exasperated at the sight of sexily clad ladies because the creators are treating (whether they are aware of it or not) her as a sexual object than a sexual being, which is one of the layers of a bigger issue that is sexism.

Combine such train of thoughts with the Tharja haters placing LOTS of emphasis on her sex appeal as their reason to hate her even they claim otherwise (re: certain Noire "fans") and screeching att her mere existence, and it makes for DAMN unfortunate bullshit that's centered on hwo EW EW, THARJA IS SEXUALIIIIIIISED, KILL HER. I'm not saying that YOU are doing the same, anon, but it does conflate a lot from what I've seen of the Tharja bashing - using her 'sexy' looks as a "crutch" to bash her, despite saying it's not for that.

Again, I'm definitely aware you're not criticizing me personally, and there are of course fans who do hate her for ridiculous reasons no matter what she does!

I can't speak for everyone, but my own reason for being bugged by Tharja being sexualized is because she isn't dressing the way she does because she personally wants to like Aversa dresses the way she does because she owns her sexuality. Tharja dresses the way she does because "she didn't know she was potentially turning guys on in a revealing outfit since she's so oblivious!" which is a commonly used trope in practically every anime and manga out there. I find it an issue because, in a way, it sort of infantilizes her since the writers are basically saying (whether it was intentional or not) because she's so oblivious of how much of a "turn-on" her clothes could be due to her inner "innocence" or "childishness", it is therefore okay for others to fetishize her in what she wears.

That's... creepy.

Also, there's a detail to consider: Tharja isn't the only one who invokes the Innocent/Reluctant Fanservice Girl trope. Both Cordelia and Olivia do it too, and in fact they do it in the same Scramble stagte... but both get LESS shit for it. Why? I'd like to know. But I feel it's for the same reason up there: the fans feel more threatened because of Tharja's hang-ups and downright weird personalities, so they don't tend to look at them and focus on complaining about Tharja rather than them. (Even when Olivia DOES get her share of pot shots.)

I can't speak for everyone, but while I'm a little weirded out by Olivia's Summer Scramble supports with Lissa, I'm not otherwise entirely bugged by what she's wearing otherwise because it actually makes some sense since she states she's fine with her dancer outfit because it's part of her job. Not that it makes her Summer Scramble supports with Lissa any less awkward, but her reasons for her design aren't as questionable as one the writers provided for Tharja.

In the case of Cordelia, I, again, can't speak for everyone, but I assume the reason why there hasn't been as much criticism of of Summer Scramble segments is because she's not being treated as THE Ms. Fanservice Girl Tharja is in general. Sure, she got slapped with the ridiculous boob-shaped armor in her default outfit, but she's not being sexualized for her it. If we're talking about her swimsuit CG, it's actually pretty tame in comparison to what one normally sees when it comes to anime ladies wearing swimsuits for fanservice. The worst you've got is one strap slipping off Cordelia's shoulder and the small boobs jokes (which the fandom has criticized the writers for the latter), but it's nowhere near to the levels of fanservice Tharja's gotten when the latter is sure as hell unwilling to show off her body.

Obviously, Tharja is not the worst example of sexualization, but the fact IS using Tharja's body as a way of making money (e.g. the figuring of Tharja in a suggestive and OOC pose, Summer Scramble DLC, etc.) and using the tired, old "she didn't even notice her outfit could be turning others on, so it's okay to ogle her!" trope as a way of making her seem "childishly cute" (keep in mind if that mixing the phrases "childishly cute" and "female character" together in a work is an instant money maker within the otaku fandom in Japan) doesn't make

> But I feel it's for the same reason up there: the fans feel more threatened because of Tharja's hang-ups and downright weird personalities, so they don't tend to look at them and focus on complaining about Tharja rather than them.

> ...but looking at fandom I still can't help wincing and being disgusted. Awakening unlocked the inner misogyny of many fans, specially insecure girls who hate on other women for X/Y/Z, and damn it tends to show with how they use Tharja as a scapegoat for such stuff.

...What. Anon, you might've not realized this, but you're basically saying that if anyone is criticizing a fictional lady, it's automatically because they feel threatened by the possibility her character is "stealing all the guys away" rather than them legitimately criticizing the writers/artists/game devs for their treatment of said fictional lady, especially since female characters tend to be poorly handled most of the time in any form of media and most are sick of it.

Sure, I've seen my fair share of people criticizing fictional women no matter what they do, especially in the otome game fandoms due to mostly ship wars. However, the fact your statement gives the implication people criticize how Tharja's handled because they feel "threatened" by her than having legitimate reasons for not liking how she's written or designed doesn't make it less unfortunate.

...And wow, that got tl;dr than I expected.

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 17:40 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 18:47 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 19:03 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 19:48 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 20:28 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 20:32 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 20:40 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 20:51 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 21:03 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 21:07 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 21:13 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 21:15 (UTC) - Expand

and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 21:42 (UTC) - Expand

Re: and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 21:44 (UTC) - Expand

Re: and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 21:47 (UTC) - Expand

Re: and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 21:50 (UTC) - Expand

Re: and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 22:12 (UTC) - Expand

sa

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 22:12 (UTC) - Expand

Re: and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 22:16 (UTC) - Expand

Re: and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 22:27 (UTC) - Expand

Re: and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 22:37 (UTC) - Expand

Re: and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 21:44 (UTC) - Expand

Re: and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 22:16 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 20:35 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 20:40 (UTC) - Expand

+1

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 21:18 (UTC) - Expand

sa

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 18:51 (UTC) - Expand

Re: CANON - reposted

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 05:39 pm (UTC)(link)
YES, exactly. I agree that there is a disconnect with Tharja's outfit and personality, but too many of the complaints are slut-shaming from angry "fandom feminists".

Re: CANON - reposted

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 19:09 (UTC) - Expand

Re: CANON - reposted

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 19:49 (UTC) - Expand

da

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 19:56 (UTC) - Expand

Re: da

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 19:57 (UTC) - Expand

Re: da

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 20:01 (UTC) - Expand

Re: da

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 20:16 (UTC) - Expand

Re: da

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 20:25 (UTC) - Expand

da

(Anonymous) 2014-04-19 06:12 am (UTC)(link)
But I feel it's for the same reason up there: the fans feel more threatened because of Tharja's hang-ups and downright weird personalities, so they don't tend to look at them and focus on complaining about Tharja rather than them. (Even when Olivia DOES get her share of pot shots.)

So yeah, there might be some truth to your arguments and reasons, but looking at fandom I still can't help wincing and being disgusted. Awakening unlocked the inner misogyny of many fans, specially insecure girls who hate on other women for X/Y/Z, and damn it tends to show with how they use Tharja as a scapegoat for such stuff.


I know I'm late-ish to hop into this thread and this has already been pointed out, but

oh my god, did you really just argue "PPL WHO DON'T LIEK THARJA ARE JUST JEALOUS!!!"? Really?

Please tell me you're just trolling because your comment made me stop taking you seriously.

Re: da

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-21 17:05 (UTC) - Expand

A THEORY ABOUT THARJA'S OUTFIT

(Anonymous) 2014-04-22 05:03 am (UTC)(link)
I think we're forgetting that what she wears is the standard for all dark mages, male and female. My feeling is that when Tharja joined the ranks she just took what she was given to wear without any questions. Not in the oblivious/infantilized way but more like "whatever, just give me my damn uniform so I can get to cursing people".

nayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-22 05:15 am (UTC)(link)
The issue with that theory is that the other dark mage, Henry, gets his own personalized, modest outfit while Tharja... doesn't customize her own outfit to something she would personally feel more comfortable wearing.

Even if you subscribe to the idea that she chose to not question her uniform, the way Summer Scramble presents comes off more as "My clothes are... revealing? OHGODOHGODOHGOD I'M SO EMBARRASSED I COULD JUST DIEEEE!!!" which is more in line with what you see in anime fanservice.

Since Summer Scramble is a fanservice chapter, I'd say it's more likely the writers were going for the typical cutesy oblivious, sorta infantilized approach for Tharja's character than the "idk what the damn uniform looks like just wanna curse people" approach.

*presents IT (sa)

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-22 05:16 (UTC) - Expand

Re: nayrt

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-22 05:25 (UTC) - Expand

Re: CANON

(Anonymous) 2014-05-04 12:55 am (UTC)(link)
Guys.

What if Tharja was trolling Cordelia the entire time?

Think about it.

http://fe-according-to-japan.tumblr.com/post/55474603551/5-cordelia-anguish-sorry-about-the-delay-i

(Anonymous) 2014-05-04 04:53 am (UTC)(link)
nah, she already trolled cordelia once by tricking her into drinking a potion by telling her it'd give her bigger boobs

it'd be pretty stale trolling her the second time

Re: CANON

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 05:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Lucina's Judgement. I feel like if they had to put in a confrontation scene they could have done it with way less melodrama. And the supports with her and a non-mom girl Avatar could've been better, too.

Re: CANON

(Anonymous) 2014-04-20 12:28 pm (UTC)(link)
i really fucing hate her talks with mama!robin in future past. lucina being far more affectionate to robin than her other moms is terribly ooc and reads like the talk was written by rabid chrombin shippers of the "lucina is my daughter" kind

Re: CANON

(Anonymous) 2014-04-20 05:38 pm (UTC)(link)
http://perlifblim.tumblr.com/post/80578413076/reads-through-future-past-parent-child-scripts

You read this? The GAH is a proper reaction, imo (which I can now hear in her voice because of the meme and it's really funny)

But I think Lucina's talks with her other moms are alright? The frozenviolets person she's talking with in the notes says they're cold, which is taking it a bit far.

Re: CANON

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-21 12:31 (UTC) - Expand

Since we're on the topic of Tharja...

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 11:16 pm (UTC)(link)
http://peasantjawnz.tumblr.com/post/82801863712/replacement-head-piece-came-in

Is it me, or are the Tharja figurine's legs longer than her torso + head in a way that it looks weird?

Re: Since we're on the topic of Tharja...

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 11:17 pm (UTC)(link)
She has Utena syndrome.

Re: Since we're on the topic of Tharja...

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 23:18 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Since we're on the topic of Tharja...

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 23:25 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Since we're on the topic of Tharja...

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 23:27 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Since we're on the topic of Tharja...

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 23:28 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Since we're on the topic of Tharja...

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 23:29 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Since we're on the topic of Tharja...

(Anonymous) - 2014-07-31 16:44 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Since we're on the topic of Tharja...

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 11:21 pm (UTC)(link)
maybe it's a hex that went wrong

that's why tharja has insanely long legs

Re: Since we're on the topic of Tharja...

(Anonymous) 2014-04-18 01:01 am (UTC)(link)
to be fair, she IS designed with very long legs. but they definitely look like utena legs in that figure

Re: CANON

(Anonymous) 2014-04-22 05:31 am (UTC)(link)
obligatory complaint about Fred/Cordy S support goes here

Re: CANON

(Anonymous) 2014-04-30 03:44 am (UTC)(link)
OMNaga, this. When the S support comes up, all of a sudden Frederick acts as a borderline Entitled Nice Guy (tm) to Cordelia -- complete with him pretty much badmouthing the guy she crushes on *to her very face*. I also really dislike how Cordy almost seems to settle for seconds in Fred's case, rather than accepting his proposal because she actually likes him as a person. (And it's the ONLY pairing of hers that gives me such an impression, I might add.)

I seriously can't understand how the HELL did the writers do so well up until A level, and then fucked the S support AND their shared ending So. Fucking. Badly.

Re: CANON

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-30 03:45 (UTC) - Expand

Re: CANON

(Anonymous) 2014-04-25 07:21 pm (UTC)(link)
It still annoys me that the MU/Chrom supports are so much better written than the FeMU/Chrom supports. This is supposed to be a pair that, even when they're platonic friends, trust and rely on one another more than anyone else in the army. Arguably even more than their own children and spouses. This pairing should have written itself, I'm baffled that they could fuck it up this badly.

Re: CANON

(Anonymous) 2014-04-25 07:26 pm (UTC)(link)
This is why when I initially shipped Chrombin, I shipped them based on their interactions in the actual game and not their supports.

That said, though, I hate it when people use the support differences to preach the superiority of boy!Robin and bash girl!Robin. Yes, the feMU supports weren't very good, but that doesn't mean feMU is a piece of trash and should never ever be allowed to marry Chrom ever.

Re: CANON

(Anonymous) 2014-04-26 04:43 am (UTC)(link)
The Big Misunderstanding re: Lucina in chapter 13. Aside from Maribelle's very funny reactions, I found this scene entirely unnecessary and ridiculous. The "woman catches her love with other woman, gets upset and freaks out" cliche is one of my least favorites and I wish they'd handled the reveal to Chrom's wife with more dignity.

GAMEPLAY GRIPES

(Anonymous) 2014-04-29 05:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Got a character you love but hate to train because they keep dying? Any maps you wish you could redesign not to suck so bad? Mechanics in any game that drive you nuts? Butthurt over the loss of a mechanic you loved?

Re: GAMEPLAY GRIPES

(Anonymous) 2014-04-30 03:37 am (UTC)(link)
I love Light Magic to death... WHY AWAKENING, WHY DID YOU TAKE IT AWAY? ;A;

Re: GAMEPLAY GRIPES

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-30 03:38 (UTC) - Expand

Re: CANON

(Anonymous) 2014-05-06 02:44 pm (UTC)(link)
I disagree with anyone who thinks Nowi looks like a little girl. To me, she looks like she's Lissa's age, maybe a little older, and just happens to have a flat chest. Not every woman grows up to have even medium-sized boobs, some stay A-cups long into their 30s. So Nowi could just be a pettanko.

That said, I do understand the discomfort with her design. I get WHY she'd initially appear running around in a battle bikini-she was just rescued from the slave block and it was probably all she had to wear. And I get why the designers chose the look they did for her-it's fanservice and fetish bait, pure and simple. The Japanese enjoy the sexualized lolicon look. But values dissonance or not, I can understand the discomfort and admit to wishing they'd given her a more modest dress to wear post-recruitment. I can't imagine one of the girls in the army NOT buying her something, or Gaius making something for her.

This doesn't excuse the slutshaming and bashing of Nowi by shallow fans, of course, not in my book. She's more than an iffy outfit design, after all! But still, I can get why people don't dig it so much.