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Fire Emblem Anon Mod ([personal profile] feanonmod) wrote in [community profile] feanons2014-04-14 12:34 pm
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part 3 kris, try not to fall in love with me!

Aaand now we're now onto part 3!

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Canon | General Fandom | Fans

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Re: CANON

(Anonymous) 2014-04-15 03:11 am (UTC)(link)
Let's start off with this thread with some Tharja venting. Or rather, let's start off with some of my own criticism of how the devs handled Tharja and her design.

Pretty sure we've discussed before how Tharja wearing an outfit she ICly would feel uncomfortable with and, in fact, does feel so in Summer Scramble.

Was anyone find the in-game explanation they give in her Summer Scramble supports with Cordelia where she basically says she never realized how revealing her outfit was until Cordelia pointed it out problematic? I know there some anons last discussion who mentioned it could have been a way of showing how socially awkward she was, but I disagree with that tbh.

The "she didn't realize her outfit's so fanservice-y until someone told her!" explanation, or the Innocent (or Reluctant) Fanservice Girl trope, has been used in many anime and manga, including video games, as a form of fanservice to the male audience as a way of showing how "cute, childish, and innocent" she is. Yes, even for ladies who'd be the last you'd describe as "cute", "childish", or "innocent" such as Tharja.

In other words, the writers are more or less invoking the Innocent (or Reluctant) Fanservice Girl trope in the Tharja/Cordelia convo as a way of paying service to Tharja's fanbase than actually adding to her character.

Feel free to agree or disagree, but I personally find that... a pretty problematic way of handling Tharja's character.

Re: CANON - reposted

(Anonymous) 2014-04-15 10:24 am (UTC)(link)
My problem with these arguments is that such stuff reminds me a LOT of real life slut shaming. They put responsability on the real/fictional female for wearing the revealing outfit and less on the males oggling her and thay makes me deeply uncomfortable as it reminds me of the "bitch should have covered herself!!!!" shit, which often comes from women that are VERY often jealous of the "miss fanservice" herself fir the attention she gets adf look desperately for any reasons to bring her down for *GASP* being sexually appealing in any way.

Combine such train of thoughts with the Tharja haters placing LOTS of emphasis on her sex appeal as their reason to hate her even they claim otherwise (re: certain Noire "fans") and screeching att her mere existence, and it makes for DAMN unfortunate bullshit that's centered on hwo EW EW, THARJA IS SEXUALIIIIIIISED, KILL HER. I'm not saying that YOU are doing the same, anon, but it does conflate a lot from what I've seen of the Tharja bashing - using her 'sexy' looks as a "crutch" to bash her, despite saying it's not for that.

Also, there's a detail to consider: Tharja isn't the only one who invokes the Innocent/Reluctant Fanservice Girl trope. Both Cordelia and Olivia do it too, and in fact they do it in the same Scramble stagte... but both get LESS shit for it. Why? I'd like to know. But I feel it's for the same reason up there: the fans feel more threatened because of Tharja's hang-ups and downright weird personalities, so they don't tend to look at them and focus on complaining about Tharja rather than them. (Even when Olivia DOES get her share of pot shots.)

So yeah, there might be some truth to your arguments and reasons, but looking at fandom I still can't help wincing and being disgusted. Awakening unlocked the inner misogyny of many fans, specially insecure girls who hate on other women for X/Y/Z, and damn it tends to show with how they use Tharja as a scapegoat for such stuff.


PS: This is not about you or the discussion, but may I say that I HATE the word "problematic"? It has been so invoked by pretentious and bully-addicted SJW's and slapped on "anything *I* don't like, weh weh weeeeeeh" that it has pretty mch lost its meaning.

ayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-16 02:21 am (UTC)(link)
I'm just going to be breaking down my response since it's easier for me to get my thoughts together that way...

They put responsability on the real/fictional female for wearing the revealing outfit and less on the males oggling her and thay makes me deeply uncomfortable as it reminds me of the "bitch should have covered herself!!!!" shit, which often comes from women that are VERY often jealous of the "miss fanservice" herself fir the attention she gets adf look desperately for any reasons to bring her down for *GASP* being sexually appealing in any way.

I'm aware you aren't saying this about me, but I'd like to point out most of these arguments are putting responsibility on the artists and the game devs for designing the character for how she dresses/appears. MANY female characters who are designed to wear revealing outfits, even when it's inappropriate for the situation, don't tend to choose that outfit because the character herself chooses to out of her personal preferences. It's because whoever designed her that way said so, usually because they subconsciously or consciously wanted some eye candy with a nice pair of legs or they believe sexily clad females are the "norm" even when it's OOC of her to wear what she does.

Obviously, there are people out there who piss on female characters no matter what, but just as many complaining are exasperated at the sight of sexily clad ladies because the creators are treating (whether they are aware of it or not) her as a sexual object than a sexual being, which is one of the layers of a bigger issue that is sexism.

Combine such train of thoughts with the Tharja haters placing LOTS of emphasis on her sex appeal as their reason to hate her even they claim otherwise (re: certain Noire "fans") and screeching att her mere existence, and it makes for DAMN unfortunate bullshit that's centered on hwo EW EW, THARJA IS SEXUALIIIIIIISED, KILL HER. I'm not saying that YOU are doing the same, anon, but it does conflate a lot from what I've seen of the Tharja bashing - using her 'sexy' looks as a "crutch" to bash her, despite saying it's not for that.

Again, I'm definitely aware you're not criticizing me personally, and there are of course fans who do hate her for ridiculous reasons no matter what she does!

I can't speak for everyone, but my own reason for being bugged by Tharja being sexualized is because she isn't dressing the way she does because she personally wants to like Aversa dresses the way she does because she owns her sexuality. Tharja dresses the way she does because "she didn't know she was potentially turning guys on in a revealing outfit since she's so oblivious!" which is a commonly used trope in practically every anime and manga out there. I find it an issue because, in a way, it sort of infantilizes her since the writers are basically saying (whether it was intentional or not) because she's so oblivious of how much of a "turn-on" her clothes could be due to her inner "innocence" or "childishness", it is therefore okay for others to fetishize her in what she wears.

That's... creepy.

Also, there's a detail to consider: Tharja isn't the only one who invokes the Innocent/Reluctant Fanservice Girl trope. Both Cordelia and Olivia do it too, and in fact they do it in the same Scramble stagte... but both get LESS shit for it. Why? I'd like to know. But I feel it's for the same reason up there: the fans feel more threatened because of Tharja's hang-ups and downright weird personalities, so they don't tend to look at them and focus on complaining about Tharja rather than them. (Even when Olivia DOES get her share of pot shots.)

I can't speak for everyone, but while I'm a little weirded out by Olivia's Summer Scramble supports with Lissa, I'm not otherwise entirely bugged by what she's wearing otherwise because it actually makes some sense since she states she's fine with her dancer outfit because it's part of her job. Not that it makes her Summer Scramble supports with Lissa any less awkward, but her reasons for her design aren't as questionable as one the writers provided for Tharja.

In the case of Cordelia, I, again, can't speak for everyone, but I assume the reason why there hasn't been as much criticism of of Summer Scramble segments is because she's not being treated as THE Ms. Fanservice Girl Tharja is in general. Sure, she got slapped with the ridiculous boob-shaped armor in her default outfit, but she's not being sexualized for her it. If we're talking about her swimsuit CG, it's actually pretty tame in comparison to what one normally sees when it comes to anime ladies wearing swimsuits for fanservice. The worst you've got is one strap slipping off Cordelia's shoulder and the small boobs jokes (which the fandom has criticized the writers for the latter), but it's nowhere near to the levels of fanservice Tharja's gotten when the latter is sure as hell unwilling to show off her body.

Obviously, Tharja is not the worst example of sexualization, but the fact IS using Tharja's body as a way of making money (e.g. the figuring of Tharja in a suggestive and OOC pose, Summer Scramble DLC, etc.) and using the tired, old "she didn't even notice her outfit could be turning others on, so it's okay to ogle her!" trope as a way of making her seem "childishly cute" (keep in mind if that mixing the phrases "childishly cute" and "female character" together in a work is an instant money maker within the otaku fandom in Japan) doesn't make

> But I feel it's for the same reason up there: the fans feel more threatened because of Tharja's hang-ups and downright weird personalities, so they don't tend to look at them and focus on complaining about Tharja rather than them.

> ...but looking at fandom I still can't help wincing and being disgusted. Awakening unlocked the inner misogyny of many fans, specially insecure girls who hate on other women for X/Y/Z, and damn it tends to show with how they use Tharja as a scapegoat for such stuff.

...What. Anon, you might've not realized this, but you're basically saying that if anyone is criticizing a fictional lady, it's automatically because they feel threatened by the possibility her character is "stealing all the guys away" rather than them legitimately criticizing the writers/artists/game devs for their treatment of said fictional lady, especially since female characters tend to be poorly handled most of the time in any form of media and most are sick of it.

Sure, I've seen my fair share of people criticizing fictional women no matter what they do, especially in the otome game fandoms due to mostly ship wars. However, the fact your statement gives the implication people criticize how Tharja's handled because they feel "threatened" by her than having legitimate reasons for not liking how she's written or designed doesn't make it less unfortunate.

...And wow, that got tl;dr than I expected.

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 05:40 pm (UTC)(link)
...What. Anon, you might've not realized this, but you're basically saying that if anyone is criticizing a fictional lady, it's automatically because they feel threatened by the possibility her character is "stealing all the guys away" rather than them legitimately criticizing the writers/artists/game devs for their treatment of said fictional lady, especially since female characters tend to be poorly handled most of the time in any form of media and most are sick of it.

As someone who was in the Fushigi Yuugi fandom, the "stealing all the guys" excuse was one of THE most common used for bashing Miaka. So it's hard not to fall back on it when we see people bashing a pretty/sexy female character who has her pick of many men.

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 06:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Okay, but that's a entirely different fandom altogether so I can't comment on the circumstances behind the Fushigi Yuugi fandom and their apparent hatred for Miaka, which are most likely different from the FE fandom's constant criticisms of Tharja's character and/or her design.

Also, the "well, YOU'RE just afraid this fictional lady is stealing all the guys away" response is a pretty weak argument with unfortunate implications, especially since I have never seen anyone in the FE fandom claim they disliked or criticized Tharja because "she stole all the guys away." Even if there were a few people who thought Tharja was "stealing all the guys away," it's still an extremely uncommon argument in this fandom that it's unfair to paint EVERY single person who criticizes Tharja's character or design as "an insecure girl who thinks this sexy-looking fictional lady with a bunch of personality quirks is stealing all the guys away from her."

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 07:03 pm (UTC)(link)
EVERY single person who criticizes Tharja's character or design as "an insecure girl who thinks this sexy-looking fictional lady with a bunch of personality quirks is stealing all the guys away from her."

i'd give that more credit more if 90% of the tharja hate i've seen didn't boil down to that excuse, truth to be told. even those haters who use noire as their 'barganing chip' end up 'returning' to bash tharja's "slutty" looks and cry because 'weeeeeeh weeeeh, these horny fans loooove her and they don't see how horrible and abusive she is, weeeeeeeeeeeh WEEEEEEEEH'

so yeah, sorry nonnie. i'm afraid either these 'insecure girls' are more numerous than you think, or they're less common yet scream their tharja hate so loudly that they drown out any other 'rounder' arguments.

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 07:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, considering the first thing anyone bitched about was Tharja's appearance, long before her personality and Noire were fully established. One of the first "critique" posts I ever saw was bashing her for her bikini scene.

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 08:28 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm not even going to deny there ARE vocal, ridiculous arguments against Tharja out there no matter what she does, but there are still going to be people who hate her regardless of her appearance. Her design gave certain fans more to complain about, but there are people who are reasonable uncomfortable by her neglect of Noire and her using her daughter as a guinea pig for hexes (albeit they're comic relief curses, but there's still a lack of consent from Noire's part).

Aaand at this point, I'm probably going to make this my last comment for the time being. You haven't actually addressed the points I made in my first response to you, anon, and the topic of the fandom's reaction to how the writers handled Tharja's relationship to Noire is becoming a tangent to the original argument of how the writers tried justify in-game the artists' choices for Tharja's outfit.

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 08:32 pm (UTC)(link)
The whole reason behind Tharja's outfit is fanservice, pure and simple. It doesn't fit her personality, I can see why it'd bother people. But some of us don't care about horny designers and Japanese fetish fuel and just want to appreciate her as a character, terrible flaws and all. Or we just think she's a kickass unit and couldn't care less if she covered from her forehead to her ankles.

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 20:40 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 20:51 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 21:03 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 21:07 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 21:13 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 21:15 (UTC) - Expand

and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 21:42 (UTC) - Expand

Re: and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 21:44 (UTC) - Expand

Re: and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 21:47 (UTC) - Expand

Re: and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 21:50 (UTC) - Expand

Re: and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 22:12 (UTC) - Expand

sa

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 22:12 (UTC) - Expand

Re: and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 22:16 (UTC) - Expand

Re: and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 22:27 (UTC) - Expand

Re: and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 22:37 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 21:44 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 22:16 (UTC) - Expand

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 08:35 pm (UTC)(link)
No one has said that, fellow anon. No one has said that people HAVE to like her or something, since let's be real: no one can please everyone and we don't have to like the same things. But people always return to the same arguments focused either on:

a) denigrating her for her "slutty" and "only made for stupid horny men EWWWWWWW" looks, or

b) totally reducing the actually rather complex relationship between her and Noire solely to "THARJA EVIL, NOIRE VICTIM, WEEEEEEEH WEEEEH if you like Tharja you're MUST be pro-abuse"

So yeah, it's not easy to see things from a POV similar to yours.

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 20:40 (UTC) - Expand

+1

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 21:18 (UTC) - Expand

sa

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 06:51 pm (UTC)(link)
*Obviously, Tharja is not the worst example of sexualization, but the fact IS using Tharja's body as a way of making money (e.g. the figurine of Tharja in a suggestive and OOC pose, Summer Scramble DLC, etc.) and using the tired, old "she didn't even notice her outfit could be turning others on, so it's okay to ogle her!" trope as a way of making her seem "childishly cute" (keep in mind if that mixing the phrases "childishly cute" and "female character" together in a work is an instant money maker within the otaku fandom in Japan) doesn't make it any less questionable.

...and a few more typos I missed.

how did I make this mistake

Re: CANON - reposted

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 05:39 pm (UTC)(link)
YES, exactly. I agree that there is a disconnect with Tharja's outfit and personality, but too many of the complaints are slut-shaming from angry "fandom feminists".

Re: CANON - reposted

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 07:09 pm (UTC)(link)
one that was sadly present from before awakening was brought to the USA. remember the circle photoshopping like, five different character's heads on tharja's official art to whine about how slutty and horrible it was? it was so embarrassing.

Re: CANON - reposted

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 07:49 pm (UTC)(link)
God, YES. Soren was the most common of all of them. There were also people who photoshopped Ephraim's head onto bride!Eirika.

da

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 07:56 pm (UTC)(link)
one circle photoshopping heads onto tharja and slutshaming her =/= the people who have legit complaints against her

Re: da

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 07:57 pm (UTC)(link)
We know this NOW, but for a while the circle was overlapping everything else.

Re: da

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 08:01 pm (UTC)(link)
it was hard to tell due to the constant claims in this threads that MOST people who complain about tharja are insecure girls who hate her who she is instead people actually making legit complaints.

Re: da

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 20:16 (UTC) - Expand

Re: da

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 20:25 (UTC) - Expand

da

(Anonymous) 2014-04-19 06:12 am (UTC)(link)
But I feel it's for the same reason up there: the fans feel more threatened because of Tharja's hang-ups and downright weird personalities, so they don't tend to look at them and focus on complaining about Tharja rather than them. (Even when Olivia DOES get her share of pot shots.)

So yeah, there might be some truth to your arguments and reasons, but looking at fandom I still can't help wincing and being disgusted. Awakening unlocked the inner misogyny of many fans, specially insecure girls who hate on other women for X/Y/Z, and damn it tends to show with how they use Tharja as a scapegoat for such stuff.


I know I'm late-ish to hop into this thread and this has already been pointed out, but

oh my god, did you really just argue "PPL WHO DON'T LIEK THARJA ARE JUST JEALOUS!!!"? Really?

Please tell me you're just trolling because your comment made me stop taking you seriously.

Re: da

(Anonymous) 2014-04-21 05:05 pm (UTC)(link)
While anon over there may have been off-base with their comment, the sad truth is fandom in general is full of insecure fangirls who hate female characters for being prettier or getting more attention from boys. It happens. So it's all too easy to fall into the trap of assuming that it's always the case, even when it's not.

That said, I think girls who bash Tharja for her looks aren't necessarily jealous but just shallow. "Jealous" more suits the rabid Chrombins who bash Sumia or ASC and his Gerome-bashing.

A THEORY ABOUT THARJA'S OUTFIT

(Anonymous) 2014-04-22 05:03 am (UTC)(link)
I think we're forgetting that what she wears is the standard for all dark mages, male and female. My feeling is that when Tharja joined the ranks she just took what she was given to wear without any questions. Not in the oblivious/infantilized way but more like "whatever, just give me my damn uniform so I can get to cursing people".

nayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-22 05:15 am (UTC)(link)
The issue with that theory is that the other dark mage, Henry, gets his own personalized, modest outfit while Tharja... doesn't customize her own outfit to something she would personally feel more comfortable wearing.

Even if you subscribe to the idea that she chose to not question her uniform, the way Summer Scramble presents comes off more as "My clothes are... revealing? OHGODOHGODOHGOD I'M SO EMBARRASSED I COULD JUST DIEEEE!!!" which is more in line with what you see in anime fanservice.

Since Summer Scramble is a fanservice chapter, I'd say it's more likely the writers were going for the typical cutesy oblivious, sorta infantilized approach for Tharja's character than the "idk what the damn uniform looks like just wanna curse people" approach.

*presents IT (sa)

(Anonymous) 2014-04-22 05:16 am (UTC)(link)

Re: nayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-22 05:25 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, that's pretty much what I think re: SS. I count it as optional canon because while we do get some amazing convos and development (Henry and Gaius, Sumia and Lissa, Ricken and Chrom, Panne and Nowi) there's also a lot of character exaggeration gags thrown in solely for titillation of fans. Like how most of the Harvest Scramble convos with the kids are thought-provoking and character-based and then we get Gerome/Inigo with the ~strong firm touch~.

So yeah, I'd say SS's rendition of Tharja and her outfit is just for fanservice and in the actual game she just took what she was given since it's never actually brought up in support convos or event tiles or anything.

(I also find it amusing how only Gauis escapes the flaily fanservice treatment out of the four swimsuit winners. Too busy worrying about his stash to be embarrassed. XD)

Re: CANON

(Anonymous) 2014-05-04 12:55 am (UTC)(link)
Guys.

What if Tharja was trolling Cordelia the entire time?

Think about it.

http://fe-according-to-japan.tumblr.com/post/55474603551/5-cordelia-anguish-sorry-about-the-delay-i

(Anonymous) 2014-05-04 04:53 am (UTC)(link)
nah, she already trolled cordelia once by tricking her into drinking a potion by telling her it'd give her bigger boobs

it'd be pretty stale trolling her the second time