feanonmod: official art (Default)
Fire Emblem Anon Mod ([personal profile] feanonmod) wrote in [community profile] feanons2014-04-14 12:34 pm
Entry tags:

part 3 kris, try not to fall in love with me!

Aaand now we're now onto part 3!

Same as usual, make sure to read the rules linked below before posting. If you have any questions or otherwise need to get in touch with me for any reason, feel free to contact me in the post also linked below!

Image Code:


As a note, images larger than 600 x 600 must be linked! Anything larger than that will be deleted. Also, please make sure to read the rules in regards to this meme's policy on posting other people's fanart.

Rules & Venting Guidelines | Contact | Latest Page (Flat View)

VENTING: (PLEASE READ THE RULES & VENTING GUIDELINES BEFORE POSTING)
Canon | General Fandom | Fans

FEEDBACK

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

ayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-16 02:21 am (UTC)(link)
I'm just going to be breaking down my response since it's easier for me to get my thoughts together that way...

They put responsability on the real/fictional female for wearing the revealing outfit and less on the males oggling her and thay makes me deeply uncomfortable as it reminds me of the "bitch should have covered herself!!!!" shit, which often comes from women that are VERY often jealous of the "miss fanservice" herself fir the attention she gets adf look desperately for any reasons to bring her down for *GASP* being sexually appealing in any way.

I'm aware you aren't saying this about me, but I'd like to point out most of these arguments are putting responsibility on the artists and the game devs for designing the character for how she dresses/appears. MANY female characters who are designed to wear revealing outfits, even when it's inappropriate for the situation, don't tend to choose that outfit because the character herself chooses to out of her personal preferences. It's because whoever designed her that way said so, usually because they subconsciously or consciously wanted some eye candy with a nice pair of legs or they believe sexily clad females are the "norm" even when it's OOC of her to wear what she does.

Obviously, there are people out there who piss on female characters no matter what, but just as many complaining are exasperated at the sight of sexily clad ladies because the creators are treating (whether they are aware of it or not) her as a sexual object than a sexual being, which is one of the layers of a bigger issue that is sexism.

Combine such train of thoughts with the Tharja haters placing LOTS of emphasis on her sex appeal as their reason to hate her even they claim otherwise (re: certain Noire "fans") and screeching att her mere existence, and it makes for DAMN unfortunate bullshit that's centered on hwo EW EW, THARJA IS SEXUALIIIIIIISED, KILL HER. I'm not saying that YOU are doing the same, anon, but it does conflate a lot from what I've seen of the Tharja bashing - using her 'sexy' looks as a "crutch" to bash her, despite saying it's not for that.

Again, I'm definitely aware you're not criticizing me personally, and there are of course fans who do hate her for ridiculous reasons no matter what she does!

I can't speak for everyone, but my own reason for being bugged by Tharja being sexualized is because she isn't dressing the way she does because she personally wants to like Aversa dresses the way she does because she owns her sexuality. Tharja dresses the way she does because "she didn't know she was potentially turning guys on in a revealing outfit since she's so oblivious!" which is a commonly used trope in practically every anime and manga out there. I find it an issue because, in a way, it sort of infantilizes her since the writers are basically saying (whether it was intentional or not) because she's so oblivious of how much of a "turn-on" her clothes could be due to her inner "innocence" or "childishness", it is therefore okay for others to fetishize her in what she wears.

That's... creepy.

Also, there's a detail to consider: Tharja isn't the only one who invokes the Innocent/Reluctant Fanservice Girl trope. Both Cordelia and Olivia do it too, and in fact they do it in the same Scramble stagte... but both get LESS shit for it. Why? I'd like to know. But I feel it's for the same reason up there: the fans feel more threatened because of Tharja's hang-ups and downright weird personalities, so they don't tend to look at them and focus on complaining about Tharja rather than them. (Even when Olivia DOES get her share of pot shots.)

I can't speak for everyone, but while I'm a little weirded out by Olivia's Summer Scramble supports with Lissa, I'm not otherwise entirely bugged by what she's wearing otherwise because it actually makes some sense since she states she's fine with her dancer outfit because it's part of her job. Not that it makes her Summer Scramble supports with Lissa any less awkward, but her reasons for her design aren't as questionable as one the writers provided for Tharja.

In the case of Cordelia, I, again, can't speak for everyone, but I assume the reason why there hasn't been as much criticism of of Summer Scramble segments is because she's not being treated as THE Ms. Fanservice Girl Tharja is in general. Sure, she got slapped with the ridiculous boob-shaped armor in her default outfit, but she's not being sexualized for her it. If we're talking about her swimsuit CG, it's actually pretty tame in comparison to what one normally sees when it comes to anime ladies wearing swimsuits for fanservice. The worst you've got is one strap slipping off Cordelia's shoulder and the small boobs jokes (which the fandom has criticized the writers for the latter), but it's nowhere near to the levels of fanservice Tharja's gotten when the latter is sure as hell unwilling to show off her body.

Obviously, Tharja is not the worst example of sexualization, but the fact IS using Tharja's body as a way of making money (e.g. the figuring of Tharja in a suggestive and OOC pose, Summer Scramble DLC, etc.) and using the tired, old "she didn't even notice her outfit could be turning others on, so it's okay to ogle her!" trope as a way of making her seem "childishly cute" (keep in mind if that mixing the phrases "childishly cute" and "female character" together in a work is an instant money maker within the otaku fandom in Japan) doesn't make

> But I feel it's for the same reason up there: the fans feel more threatened because of Tharja's hang-ups and downright weird personalities, so they don't tend to look at them and focus on complaining about Tharja rather than them.

> ...but looking at fandom I still can't help wincing and being disgusted. Awakening unlocked the inner misogyny of many fans, specially insecure girls who hate on other women for X/Y/Z, and damn it tends to show with how they use Tharja as a scapegoat for such stuff.

...What. Anon, you might've not realized this, but you're basically saying that if anyone is criticizing a fictional lady, it's automatically because they feel threatened by the possibility her character is "stealing all the guys away" rather than them legitimately criticizing the writers/artists/game devs for their treatment of said fictional lady, especially since female characters tend to be poorly handled most of the time in any form of media and most are sick of it.

Sure, I've seen my fair share of people criticizing fictional women no matter what they do, especially in the otome game fandoms due to mostly ship wars. However, the fact your statement gives the implication people criticize how Tharja's handled because they feel "threatened" by her than having legitimate reasons for not liking how she's written or designed doesn't make it less unfortunate.

...And wow, that got tl;dr than I expected.

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 05:40 pm (UTC)(link)
...What. Anon, you might've not realized this, but you're basically saying that if anyone is criticizing a fictional lady, it's automatically because they feel threatened by the possibility her character is "stealing all the guys away" rather than them legitimately criticizing the writers/artists/game devs for their treatment of said fictional lady, especially since female characters tend to be poorly handled most of the time in any form of media and most are sick of it.

As someone who was in the Fushigi Yuugi fandom, the "stealing all the guys" excuse was one of THE most common used for bashing Miaka. So it's hard not to fall back on it when we see people bashing a pretty/sexy female character who has her pick of many men.

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 06:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Okay, but that's a entirely different fandom altogether so I can't comment on the circumstances behind the Fushigi Yuugi fandom and their apparent hatred for Miaka, which are most likely different from the FE fandom's constant criticisms of Tharja's character and/or her design.

Also, the "well, YOU'RE just afraid this fictional lady is stealing all the guys away" response is a pretty weak argument with unfortunate implications, especially since I have never seen anyone in the FE fandom claim they disliked or criticized Tharja because "she stole all the guys away." Even if there were a few people who thought Tharja was "stealing all the guys away," it's still an extremely uncommon argument in this fandom that it's unfair to paint EVERY single person who criticizes Tharja's character or design as "an insecure girl who thinks this sexy-looking fictional lady with a bunch of personality quirks is stealing all the guys away from her."

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 07:03 pm (UTC)(link)
EVERY single person who criticizes Tharja's character or design as "an insecure girl who thinks this sexy-looking fictional lady with a bunch of personality quirks is stealing all the guys away from her."

i'd give that more credit more if 90% of the tharja hate i've seen didn't boil down to that excuse, truth to be told. even those haters who use noire as their 'barganing chip' end up 'returning' to bash tharja's "slutty" looks and cry because 'weeeeeeh weeeeh, these horny fans loooove her and they don't see how horrible and abusive she is, weeeeeeeeeeeh WEEEEEEEEH'

so yeah, sorry nonnie. i'm afraid either these 'insecure girls' are more numerous than you think, or they're less common yet scream their tharja hate so loudly that they drown out any other 'rounder' arguments.

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 07:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, considering the first thing anyone bitched about was Tharja's appearance, long before her personality and Noire were fully established. One of the first "critique" posts I ever saw was bashing her for her bikini scene.

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 08:28 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm not even going to deny there ARE vocal, ridiculous arguments against Tharja out there no matter what she does, but there are still going to be people who hate her regardless of her appearance. Her design gave certain fans more to complain about, but there are people who are reasonable uncomfortable by her neglect of Noire and her using her daughter as a guinea pig for hexes (albeit they're comic relief curses, but there's still a lack of consent from Noire's part).

Aaand at this point, I'm probably going to make this my last comment for the time being. You haven't actually addressed the points I made in my first response to you, anon, and the topic of the fandom's reaction to how the writers handled Tharja's relationship to Noire is becoming a tangent to the original argument of how the writers tried justify in-game the artists' choices for Tharja's outfit.

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 08:32 pm (UTC)(link)
The whole reason behind Tharja's outfit is fanservice, pure and simple. It doesn't fit her personality, I can see why it'd bother people. But some of us don't care about horny designers and Japanese fetish fuel and just want to appreciate her as a character, terrible flaws and all. Or we just think she's a kickass unit and couldn't care less if she covered from her forehead to her ankles.

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 08:40 pm (UTC)(link)
but you can't simply enjoy things you like, anon

that's GASP having fun

that's not allowed in fandom!

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 08:51 pm (UTC)(link)
yes, because it's impossible to like something and still criticize its flaws

good to know

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 09:03 pm (UTC)(link)
People can criticise things they like without sounding more like haters than fans, you know. And if there's something many Awakening "fans" do is whine nonstop about every. single. thing. in it.

It's rather tiring, to be frank.

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 09:07 pm (UTC)(link)
In this fandom, it is. I, personally, can count on one hand the number of fans I've met who can criticize Awakening without being incredibly elitist about it.

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 09:13 pm (UTC)(link)
*Awakening fans

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 09:15 pm (UTC)(link)
the less these people sound like entitled whiners or smug elitists, the better

sadly, that's not very common in ANY fandom

and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 09:42 pm (UTC)(link)
i know what you guys are talking about, but i was talking about the response to op in this thread, not the fandom as a whole.

Re: and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 09:44 pm (UTC)(link)
I'll concede that maybe some anons did come down hard on the OP. But it's easy to be rubbed the wrong way by someone who posts about it in the fashion of long, drawn-out meta. :/ And, I might add, OP was pretty harsh on the anon who replied too, but no one's pointing THIS out.

Re: and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 09:47 pm (UTC)(link)
tbf, ayrt was more or less ignoring 95% of op's original response to them so i'm not going to blame op for being harsh here.

Re: and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 09:50 pm (UTC)(link)
It...didn't look like they were? I think OP just accused them of "missing the point" because ayrt disagreed with them.

Re: and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 10:12 pm (UTC)(link)
that's... not what actually happened, anon. op said ayrt didn't address the points made in their original response to them and was trying to go onto a different argument entirely.

this is op's original response to ayrt: http://feanons.dreamwidth.org/1400.html?thread=1549688#cmt1549688

yes, it's tl;dr, but whether or not you agree with their argument isn't the point i'm trying to make here.

here is ayrt's response: http://feanons.dreamwidth.org/1400.html?thread=1554296#cmt1554296

here, they didn't actually address most of the points op made and instead latched onto one argument trying to defend their own (ayrt's) response on how people who dislike tharja 'are just jealous'.

not exactly going to blame op here for wanting to hear a response that actually addresses their response when they did the same for ayrt and then ducking out when it became pretty obvious when ayrt had no intention of actually addressing those points in op's first response.

sa

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 10:12 pm (UTC)(link)
got redundant in that last paragraph whoops

Re: and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 22:16 (UTC) - Expand

Re: and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 22:27 (UTC) - Expand

Re: and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) - 2014-04-17 22:37 (UTC) - Expand

Re: and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 09:44 pm (UTC)(link)
i... really don't think that particular comment was serious

never trust the eyes.gif, anon

Re: and also a response to the other two anons above

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 10:16 pm (UTC)(link)
you do have a point, actually! i've seen in many a fandom people accusing others of being a "hater" for criticizing any part of the canon despite being fans themselves, that i guess i missed the eyes.gif.

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 08:35 pm (UTC)(link)
No one has said that, fellow anon. No one has said that people HAVE to like her or something, since let's be real: no one can please everyone and we don't have to like the same things. But people always return to the same arguments focused either on:

a) denigrating her for her "slutty" and "only made for stupid horny men EWWWWWWW" looks, or

b) totally reducing the actually rather complex relationship between her and Noire solely to "THARJA EVIL, NOIRE VICTIM, WEEEEEEEH WEEEEH if you like Tharja you're MUST be pro-abuse"

So yeah, it's not easy to see things from a POV similar to yours.

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 08:40 pm (UTC)(link)
i like how you still don't actually address what ayrt said in their other post.

+1

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 09:18 pm (UTC)(link)
JFC, I don't even totally agree with what OP said, but don't get your panties in a twist when OP chooses to drop this argument because you ignored almost their entire response to you just so you can defend that one, single argument of yours of how the NEARLY ALL the Tharja detractors are "just jealous".

No one's saying you have to bow down to what OP said, but if you can't actually take the time to address OP's points in response to you, then you were better off dropping the thread altogether, anon.

sa

(Anonymous) 2014-04-17 06:51 pm (UTC)(link)
*Obviously, Tharja is not the worst example of sexualization, but the fact IS using Tharja's body as a way of making money (e.g. the figurine of Tharja in a suggestive and OOC pose, Summer Scramble DLC, etc.) and using the tired, old "she didn't even notice her outfit could be turning others on, so it's okay to ogle her!" trope as a way of making her seem "childishly cute" (keep in mind if that mixing the phrases "childishly cute" and "female character" together in a work is an instant money maker within the otaku fandom in Japan) doesn't make it any less questionable.

...and a few more typos I missed.

how did I make this mistake